Update: Jun 21, 05:00 EDT — Stand Firm’s newest entry on this is MUST reading, and puts the story in its larger context. Don’t miss it: Under the Radar…and Over the Cliff
The news from Seattle about the Rev. Ann Redding, an ECUSA priest in the diocese of Olympia who claims to be both a Christian and a Muslim, is generating a ton of interest around the blogosphere. (We’ll post some of those links here in a little while.)
It’s also generating a lot of comments. As of now, there are 128 comments on the Seattle Times’ story thread, meaning it’s in a tie for first-place among all T19 comment threads on the new blog.
Also of particular interest, we think, is that the story is generating NEGATIVE attention among some of our reappraising friends and bloggers. The AAC blog, for instance, is reporting that Jim Naughton, the communications director for the Diocese of Washington, and an influential reappraising blogger, is trying to encourage all other Episcopal “Communicators” (i.e. diocesan communications directors) to ignore and not publicize the story. Mind boggling.
We’ll pull together a round-up of links to this story from around the blogosphere shortly and add it to this post as an update.
UPDATE: Roundup of links we’ve seen (only a partial list, I’m sure) is below.
Original Story from Diocese of Olympia’s “Episcopal Voice”
Original Titusonenine comment thread on the Diocese of Olympia article
Original Stand Firm comment thread on Dio Olympia article
Albert Mohler’s blog: Clueless in Seattle — Can You Be Both a Christian and a Muslim?
Seattle Times: Q&A (Redding answers reader questions)
Seattle Times: Reader Feedback on Story
Get Religion: She’s a dessert topping and a floor wax
Magpie Girl: Early Adaptor
Gospel Prism: Jesus Is the Only Way, but Allah Can Come Along Too
OK Preacher: Thumbs Down: Rev Ann Holmes Redding
David Fischler’s 3 part series at Reformed Pastor: Apostasy in the Great Northwest
http://reformedpastor.wordpress.com/2007/06/03/apostasy-in-the-great-northwest/
Apostasy in the Great Northwest, Part 2
Apostasy in the Great Northwest, Part 3
From the Answering Muslims blog: Can a person be both a Christian and a Muslim?
From Ad Orientum: Apostasy… Not an Issue
Three entries from Chris Johnson at MCJ:
http://themcj.com/3186
http://themcj.com/3182
http://mcj.bloghorn.com/3164
Whitehall: “I am both Christian and Muslim”
IRD June 20 Press Release: Inclusion Run Amok: A Muslim/Episcopal Priest
Bishop Epting: Christian “and” Muslim?
Anglican Centrist (Fr Jones.com): Another One of those Crazy Episcopalians
Tobias Haller: Of Doubts and Discipline
Stand To Reason: Religion as Ice Cream
The Point (Breakpoint’s blog): The Priest Said to the Imam
Rod Dreher (Cruncy Cons): What Would we Do without TEC
The Corner (Mark Steyn): Interfaith Outreach (and Steyn was linked by Instapundit)
On the Verge: Episcopal Priest Defies Logic! (was posted at Stand Firm here)
Mark Shea (Catholic & Enjoying It): This Being Seattle…
Riddleblog: Worse than Caricature
The Reformed Evangelist: Koran-quoting “Christians”
Update 2:
A technorati search will bring up at least a dozen (or two… or three dozen) more references. Here are one or two that looked particularly noteworthy:
Christianity and Islam Merge in a Postmodern World
Pursuing Truth: “Muslim & Christian” Reverend: Jesus Is Not God
Balaam’s Ass: Both Christian & Muslim
Anyway, all of the links above suggest that Jim Naughton’s plan to hide the story isn’t going to work. It really is ALL over the blogosphere.
She believes the Trinity is an idea about God and cannot be taken literally.
She does not believe Jesus and God are the same, but rather that God is more than Jesus.
She believes Jesus is the son of God insofar as all humans are the children of God, and that Jesus is divine, just as all humans are divine — because God dwells in all humans.
In Redding’s car, she has hung up a cross she made of clear crystal beads. Next to it, she has dangled a heart-shaped leather object etched with the Arabic symbol for Allah.
“For me, that symbolizes who I am,” Redding said. “I look through Jesus and I see Allah.”
………………………………………..
2 Cor 11:2-6
I feel a divine jealousy for you, for I betrothed you to Christ to present you as a pure bride to her one husband.
3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
4 For if some one comes and preaches another Jesus than the one we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you submit to it readily enough.
5 I think that I am not in the least inferior to these superlative apostles.
6 Even if I am unskilled in speaking, I am not in knowledge; in every way we have made this plain to you in all things.
RSV
………………………………………..
Sorry, but you’re not a christian dear. It’s pretty plain you’re a unititarian or pantheist.
Peace,
Barry
comment deleted by elves. Even JOKES about violence towards another individual are beyond limits
The Episcopal’s Creed
I may or may not believe in God/Goddess/Divine Force/Allah/Buddha/Nothing, the Father/Mother/Creator almighty, bringer of Shalom and Gaia.
I would like to believe in Jesus Christ, His/Her/Its only Son/Daughter/Redeemer, our Lord/Lady/Whatever, Who could not possibly have been conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit/Spirit of the Times/Nurturer/Earth Mother even though He/She/It would have been born of the Virgin/Lesbian/Transgendered Mary/Mother Goddess.
He/She/It would have suffered under Pontius Pilate, if He/She/It had actually been crucified;
for sure, He/She/It eventually died, and was buried. So He/She/It must have descended to the dead, if He/She/It ever existed.
On the third day, it is extremely unlikely, if not impossible, that He/She/It rose again. If you think so, you are a gullible fool.
If He/She/It had ascended into heaven, and been seated at the right hand of the Father/Mother/Creator, He/She/It would come again to judge the living and the dead, which would be really bad news for most of us.
However, this will never happen, according to Bishops Pike and Spong.
I may or may not believe in some sort of Divine Being or Spiritual Essence, but I definitely believe in:
the holy Constitution and Canons of the Episcopal Church,
the blessing of Gay/Lesbian/Transgendered/Bisexual unions of whatever number of individuals,
the unforgiveness of those mean-spirited bigots who claim to be orthodox in their beliefs,
the consecration of Gay/Lesbian/Transgendered/Womyn priests and bishops,
and the right to do whatever I please, whenever I want to, without any consequences. Amen.
I have asked and still not received an answer to this: The new, fully “inclusive” church abandons tradition, other than some obscure side remarks of Nicea that KJS thinks might help her keep more property, and uses “contextual exegesis” to toss out whatever scriptures is thought to be inconvenient. How can such a church prevent from degenerating into islamopalianism, buddhapalianism, nestorpalianisim,….? I know there are liberals out there who advocate full “inclusion” (euphemism for SSBs and ordination of homosexuals), but condemn this ludicrous woman. How about answering this simple quesion.
This little girl obviously feels entitled to reject basic Christian doctrines. Since I know nothing about Islam I can barely speculate, but I wonder if she is equally unaccepting of their teachings that she may not like.
Aw, Elves, it was a joke …
We understood it was a joke, but without any context of what YOU were thinking (i.e. about drinking) it came across as sounding like a death wish towards that individual. You know: Stoning someone to death? Please leave it.
Aquila
It would be funny if it wasn’t true.
Well done!
Just use an umbrella term like “Episcopalianism” and include the list as subcategories. 🙂 The rainbow colored umbrella would work instead of the Staff for Bishops….
Pastorally, Tobias Haller’s suggestion would work (see link above). But the Bishop in question hasn’t even temporarily inhibited the clergy. It makes me wonder about the claims of democracy and the polity of the Episcopal Church – really there is none. There is no way for clergy to be removed, once they are in the Episcopal Church, for theological and doctrinal abuses (unless the clergy is conservative). Now I wonder how many Bishops in TEC believe that Jesus is the Son of God. The review committee is slanted to the clergy and this is why the Anglican Covenant is so shocking to the clergy here – they will be held accountable for their beliefs and actions.
Dear Kendall and Elves
It seems to me that this issue is one that the Bishop who has oversight of this lady should have feedback on. Do you happen to know an email address where a suitably polite but firm email could be sent?
Margaret
I wouldn’t even begin to comment on this. Since when are witch hunts the “Christian” thing to do?
One priest is having some kind of crisis of faith. None of you have ever had such an experience?
The feeding frenzy about this story betrays what it is really all about; find one example of a clergy person who is struggling with her faith, and make much about it, as more evidence that those who disagree with you are going to hell in a handbasket.
Not one word of compassion…just condemnation. Very sad.
“One priest is having some kind of crisis of faith.”
How can you be so cruel and judgmental? Isn’t it obvious that she has grasped the fundamental nature of revisionist ‘Christianity’ in which the creeds are primarily symbolic, self-referential statements – which is pretty much what you believe, ‘FrJake’?
Isn’t it obvious that she has understood what Bishop Bill Swing has been doing through his ‘United Religions Initiative’?
Isn’t it clear she is taking ahead into practice what Marcus Borg has begun?
How can you call that ‘a crisis of faith’? Shame on you, ‘FrJake’!
On Surrounded.
Elves add:
Here’s the link: http://surrounded.classicalanglican.net/?p=90
An excellent blog entry Rob+, thanks.
Lutherans (of ELCA, LCMS, and other “micro-synod” stripes) have commented on the Rev. Redding’s dual faith over at ALPB Forum Online, the web side of the independent American Lutheran Publicity Bureau’s quarterly Lutheran Forum and monthly Forum Letter.
As for “witch hunts,” seems to me that when a priest announces in her diocesan newpaper that she has confessed a faith that, from its inception, was a rejection of the Christian Faith has, by definition, abandoned communion (to use a term I’ve learned since following events in TEC. No one went looking for her; she jumped up and screamed, “Look at me!!!” Alas her own descriptions reveal a startling ignorance of both Christianity and Islam.
But ignorance is not a very good excuse for apostacy. And it seems to me that a Bishop who was indeed the Christian Pastor of his Diocese would not be aiding and abetting her confusion in the name of inter-faith relations, but would be very publicly praying that she return to the Faith for the sake of her own salvation.
Fr Jake, I seem to recall quite a few people sincerely offering prayers for Ann Redding on the first T19 thread about this.
But again, we did not go hunting for her. She promoted her views in TWO diocesan newspaper articles. With no rebuttal from the diocese. And she had been the director of Faith Formation for crying out loud in the diocesan cathedral. Not some small little backwater parish.
And actually, as many have recognized, the story is not really about Ann Redding at this point, it’s about her bishop, Vincent Warner who has a responsibility to teach sound doctrine and defend the church from false teaching. And he seems to be doing nothing of the sort. He is encouraged by and promoting this error and severe confusion, not correcting it.
Sound the trumpets loudly my friends. This is what it’s all about.
Margaret G. From the diocese of Olympia website, here’s Bp. Warner’s contact info:
The Right Reverend Vincent W. Warner
(Bishop)
Phone: (206)325-4200×310
E-Mail: vwarner@ecww.org
And by the way, the diocese’s page on its doctrinal views makes interesting reading and makes it clear why Ann Redding has been encouraged in this sort of thing:
http://www.olympia.anglican.org/views/ourviews.html
Fr. Jake
This is not a witch hunt. No one on this blog is calling for her death or for the death of muslims. We are calling for godly discipline and godly judgement by her bishop. She is obviously confused and her bishop is more confused if he considers this a “great opportunity.”
The two faiths are not compatible at that level. While there is much to admire in Islamic writing and art and beauty, their faith is not compatible with Christianity. It seems that you are willing to tolerate a Christian priest who denies the following
1. The Incarnation
2. The full humanity and divinity of the Person of Jesus
3. The Trinity
4. The Atonement
5. The Crucifixion
6. The Resurrection
All of these are explicitly denied by Islam. Are they now optional beliefs for Christianity?
In Christ,
Phil Snyder
Margaret G
Ask and it shall be given 🙂
The Right Reverend Vincent W. Warner (Bishop)
Phone: (206)325-4200×310
E-Mail: vwarner@ecww.org
The Right Reverend Bavi Edna “Nedi” Rivera (Bishop Suffragan)
Phone: (206)325-4200×312
E-Mail: nrivera@ecww.org
Sorry to say I don’t have one for the bishop elect Rickel
By the way, we elves were having a bit of fun with our Stand Firm colleagues last night about who broke this story first… but since we were trying so hard to “correct the record” over there, we need to state something for the record here:
This elf has Greg G. to thank for the information about Jim Naughton’s attempt to suppress the story and the link to the AAC blog. We’d totally missed that.
Anyway, we appreciate Greg’s heads’ up. And more importantly, we’d like to encourage all our readers to go check out his latest post over at Stand Firm: Under the Radar… And Over the Cliff, which puts the Ann Holmes Redding story in its larger context and gives excellent ideas as to what you can do in response.
The blogosphere may be “buzzing” with this story. But the average Episcopalian doesn’t read blogs, or at least not reasserting sites like T19, Stand Firm, Al Mohler, … So, please help get the news out to those who might otherwise miss it.
If this can happen, and her bishop doesn’t care, then I don’t see how anyone in her diocese can speak the word “catholic” in the Nicene creed every week without breaking out into fits of laughter.
I wonder if Ms Redding realizes that the the Islamic symbol……the crescent……is really the symbol of the Arabian moon god?
Fr. Jake, as others have pointed out, nobody went “hunting.” The Diocese of Olympia put it down in black and white for everybody to see. Nor is a “crisis of faith” or “struggle” apparent: read the story again.
No, Ms. Redding appears to be very happy with this state of affairs, as does her bishop.
Since when have “witch hunts” – i.e., expecting discipline for those within the church that have renounced Christianity – been the Christian thing to do? Since about the first century A.D.
To those defending this lady’s actions,
I am pretty sure Episcopalians in the diocese of Olympia still recite the Nicene creed, and speak of believing in the “catholic” church. Being “Catholic” means more than just liking smells-and-bells, although I think for many Episcopalians, that is what it means to be “anglo-catholic” these days. There is also catholic order and discipline. Nobody is calling for a witch hunt here. However, since this priest is having a crisis of faith, then the bishop should insist on at least a sabbatical. If I were a PR guy at Coca-cola, and began insisting that Coke and Pepsi were equally worthy of my promotional efforts, then I am sure Coke would at least give me time to deal with my issues, before they fire me. This is a scandal to both Christianity and Islam. If a person can be an Episcopal priest and Muslim at the same time, the Episcopal church is not the same Church, or even a branch, of the Church of the Fathers. It is simply another crumbling American mainline protestant denomination doing its own thing.
“…the fundamental nature of revisionist ‘Christianity’ in which the creeds are primarily symbolic, self-referential statements – which is pretty much what you believe, ‘FrJake’? ”
This statement regarding my personal character is unacceptable. You don’t know me, nor what I believe. For your information, what you have stated is absolutely false.
In the future, I would recommend that you only smear those who are not present to defend themselves. Otherwise, you will be exposed as a false witness and lose any semblance of integrity you may have had.
Fr. Jake–
As the wife of a former Dean in the Episcopal Church, I’ve had the unfortunate opportunity to witness, many times, a priest in the throes of a crisis of faith. Not ONE SINGLE TIME did our bishop ever publish an account of it in the diocesan newspaper or call it “exciting.”
RE: “Otherwise, you will be exposed as a false witness and lose any semblance of integrity you may have had.”
LOL. Most of us on this site have been to Father Jake’s web site and can learn for ourselves what he believes.
Here’s yet another blog post for your collection. 😉
The Episcomuslim Priest and Baptism
Sarah,
And what have you learned? Show me one instance of where I have denied the Nicene creed? You can’t. So I suggest that you be silent.
Iam,
The bishop’s response is most unfortunate. On that we can agree. But this dogpiling on one priest to further your cause is reprehensible.
I’ll second Fr. Jake’s defense of himself. Many commenters at his website have no use for the Nicene faith; Fr. Jake isn’t one of them, so far as I’ve seen.
I find this strange. I think it is impossible for an episcopal preist to do what she is doing and have intergrity to the orders and oath she made. I think a person could learn from another releigion and find thier own strengthened, but you can’t be both. Strange. I agree with others that the Bishops’ response is even stranger.
I fail to see how trying to further the cause of Christ by asking that the bishops of His church not be blatant heretics is “reprehensible.” It saddens me that you do.
Some of us didn’t know that Fr. Jake HAD a website, and so have to figure it out here what he believes about the Creeds and the Traditional faith handed down, received.
So why is Gordian’s asking him to clarifiy it such a terrible thing?
Remember, we get all kinds of people with all ranges of beliefs (and non-beliefs) posting here. A little clarity can be a good thing, and, following St. Peter’s advice, we should never be hesitant, but rather always ready, to give an account of that which we believe.
Peace!
Jim Elliott
By the way,
I found Fr. Jake’s retort (not response) to Sarah in #27 to be condescending, with a tone of false superiority, and just ‘bad form’.
Not at all the ‘gentle answer that turns away wrath’, but rather one designed to stir up more!
Gossip about the confused lady is not Godly. However, we all need to be concerned about false teachers. If this priest is ministering to a flock of Christians, she should be barred until such time as her crisis of faith reaches some kind of conclusion. By responding pastorally to her situation, it is a fair question to ask of her Bishop whether the pastoral needs of those in her flock aren’t entitled to some consideration as well. The story is suggestive of a church out of control – entirely lacking in any discipline except the persecution of orthodox belief.
Father Jake dialogue: Kettle says, “Pot, you’re black.” His blog is filled with innuendo, character slurs, etc.
The business about “bearing false witness” is a common one when discussing issues with revisionists. In fact, there seems to be two standard retorts: they say “I am being victimized here” or “You’re bearing false witness”.
Jake, you need to follow Jim Naughton’s advise and hope that the issue blows over (or you could simply condemn the apostasy and acquiesence by the bishop).
No, I’ll not ignore an attack on the character of a bishop, based on one line quoted by the media. Nor will I ignore the harsh condemnation of a member of the clergy who is having a difficult time.
Sorry to those who don’t think I’m being “nice.” I don’t do nice very well. And in this instance, reading what has been said here, “nice” would miss the point. This is a rebuke. You have no right to block the door of the kingdom for others with your self-righteous indignation, especially when it is nothing more than a ploy to further your cause.
We’re not blocking the door to the kingdom of heaven, FrJake. We are rightly pointing out that those in holy orders are deceiving people that other doors — which lead to Hell — are just fine.
Boy do you ever have that right, Robroy. Fr. Jake is an enabler of some of the most hateful speech on the internet from bloggers whose prior personal tragedies allow them to defame and degrade any who don’t march to the beat of the Gay Pride drums. He permits no one to call them on it. It is his blog, so he has that prerogative but the comments there are posted primarily be “professional victims” who wallow in real and imaginary ancient hurts. It is a very pathetic site.
I fully agree. Rev. Ann Redding — REPENT! Do as Paul did when he discovered he was in grave error and resign your commission and go to a spiritual retreat with the Lord to work things out, for He was greatly used because of the time he invested.
I wonder what the Epistle to the Olympians would say about this new gospel.
I don’t see where she’s having a difficult time. She is gainfully employed in a bishopric’s bureaucracy and is able to indulge her universalism without any discipline from her bishop. I wish I could do whatever the hell I felt like.
As an accountant and an auditor, I see a lot of gray areas in my work. In my faith, there is much that is open for interpretation. Therefore, please do not misunderstand what I am about to say as being closed minded.
Father Jake, you say that the bishop’s comments are “most unfortunate.” This choice of words implies that his comments are open for interpretation and therefore gray. How do you interpret his words so that I may understand because right now my heart and mind are closed.
I either believe or I don’t believe. That is black and white, not gray. Christianity and Islam are both monotheistic religions. Again, I do not see any gray. If I am christian, I cannot believe in Mohammed and if I am muslim, I cannot believe that Jesus is divine. In what way is this open for interpretation? I cannot, in my heart, interpret his words as anything but supportive for Rev. Redding right now.
As a parent in the USA, I do not want my child taught english by a person who does not speak and write english fluently (makes educating my child very difficult here). I have grave concerns that neither Rev. Redding nor Bishop Warner can lead me in my belief to Christ as Rev. Redding cannot be considered a christian as she is not monotheistic and Bishop Warner has not condemned this. Please, if I am wrong, I would like to know where my logic is faulty.
I do not condemn the Bishop. I condemn his reported response both in the Diocesan newsletter and in the newspaper article. He’s had a while to clear up any perceived errors in reporting. I am not aware of any corrections coming out of his office.
I do not condemn Ms Redding. I condemn her assertion that one can be a good muslim and, at the same time, be a Christian priest.
Fr. Jake. We reasserters do not block the door. We only warn that the door that Ms Redding is pointing to is at best flawed and at worst the wrong way. I only know of one door to union with God – Jesus Christ. I only know one way to the Father – Jesus Christ. I only know one Truth – Jesus Christ. I do know know Mohammed as the way or the truth or the door. He may lead to the Father, I don’t know. I do know that Jesus does and if Mohammed says that Jesus isn’t Lord, then Mohammed does not have the fullness of truth in Him. I will only follow the one who has the fullness of truth.
How about you?
YBIC,
Phil Snyder
It’s not just one example, Fr. Jake. It is one example that recently made the news. Nor is it limited to the confused priestess. She was responsible for formation of faith in her diocese. Her story was published and celebrated by the diocese’s official press. Her bishop is down with her incompatible beliefs. So, you have at aleast an entire diocese that is corrupted. And the response from 815 cannot be detected above the sound of crickets chirping. No lawsuits, no visits from the 815 enforcers, no statements of “Grave Concern” such as the church regularly issues on things like the national budget and immigration. Nothing.
And, besides, what is wrong with witchhunts among the clergy? The Episcopal church has had self-professed witches wearing the collar before. The church won’t discipline them — at least not until they are publicly flushed by some orthodox Anglican setters.
# 23: ‘FrJake’, you need to read more carefully. I didn’t refer to your character, only your theology. You are proud to banner your website as ‘the musings of an eccentric and sometimes heretical Episcopal priest’, and I take you at your word. This is a prayer you wrote and commend (in a piece attacking biblical, i.e., Jesus’s, language for God):
“Our Mother, who art in heaven, softly calling our names in the darkness. God the Creator giving birth to all creation, nurturing and sustaining Her creation, and expressing an inclusive love for all of creation. I think our world needs this metaphor for God right now. One who creates, nurtures and sustains.”
I can’t find any of this faux gnostic slush in the Catholic creeds, so I think you must have made it up.
“Nor will I ignore the harsh condemnation of a member of the clergy who is having a difficult time.” —Fr. Jake [#36]
That’s right. If it’s an orthodox priest, Jake will pile on with a vengeance.
BTW, did Jake ever come to the defense of Fr. Mark Hansen? Or orthodox priests fired right after their spouses died?
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
“You have no right to block the door of the kingdom for others with your self-righteous indignation, especially when it is nothing more than a ploy to further your cause.”
So much to fisk, so little time:
— Does criticizing one misguided revisionist priest (and her post-apostasy priviliges) really “block the door of the kingdom”?
— Since when does Jake care which door or which kingdom? Aren’t all doors equally valid?
— And why exclude queendoms?
— “Self-righteous indignation”? “Ploy”? Mirror, meet Fr. Jake. Fr. Jake, meet Mirror.
All the arguments here, as in the original thread, which show that Redding is neither logical nor consistent with Christianity, all are correct, but you all need to see that your arguments, however sound, are of no consequence to this woman. She is probably bright enough, but what she has written shows that her intelligence is not engaged, for she pays no attention to simple coherence or logic or evidence.
I have said this before, but it needs saying again. Her concern is merely the satisfaction of her desires. This is what solipsism looks like. She is quite unable to understand anyone or anything beyond her own desires nor has it occurred to her – it cannot occur – that there is a world outside her own wishes. Accordingly, I say again that we are watching a battle, perhaps a showdown, between and Apollonian and a Dionysian culture. America is at its base, an Apollonian society. It is entirely appropriate that the Puritans, themselves often well educated, should set Harvard in motion so soon. The emphasis on law and rational organization, the emphasis on lecture rather than music in church, this is Apollonian. That the Supreme Court hold the power it has, that Americans do not commonly riot in the streets, this an Apollonian society.
But during the sixties, as you know, feeling took the place of thought, self-expression took the place of true argument, self indulgence took the place of self discipline, and thepleasures of drug use which blotted out rational considerations, The emphasis on what we have come to call touchy-feely-ness, on sensitivity over judgment,on the institutionalizing of “venting” as a way to feel better, this is the testimony of a Dionysian society.
On result is this woman whose ideas are patently silly, even childish, but which she pursues because they make her feel better. She is about egotism and its pleasures, about self-indulgence, so that all the arguments showing her error are useless. LM
Is Rev. Ann Redding actually teaching, in her capacity as clergyperson, contrary to the Nicene Creed or other Anglican doctrines? Or is this a case of the Rev. discussing her personal views in an interview? And is there a difference between the two scenarios?
Re #48
We have a choice. Either:
1) Rev. Redding is teaching and preaching contrary to the Nicene Creed, etc., in which case she is in violation of her ordination vows.
2) Rev. Redding is teaching and preaching in accordance with the Nicene Creed, etc., which she personally rejects, in which case her preaching and teaching has none of the necessary personal integrity that is at the heart of genuine ministry.
In either event, she has no business carrying out the functions of priesthood.
Mullah Redding MUST be made an Episcopal Bishop. Remember this?
http://www.scrappleface.com/MT/archives/001110.html
If you are willing appear in two Diocesen newspaper articles and give interviews then your views and problems become public. Why her bishop, the editors, staff of the newspaper, and the diocesen staff allowed this to go forward is beyond me. It reminds me of when my wife and I discuss things our kids did. You ask “What were they thinking”. The problem is these people were not thinking. Unfortunately Priest Redding and her bishop are emblomatic of the leadership in much of TEC. This is why TEC is in the position it is in. People in TEC have done things (elect VGR & KJS) because they could with out thinking through the consequences.
Elves, thanks for the link posting. Should have done that myself.
I have further added a little note that puts some real life consequences to this Christian-Muslim issue.
RGEaton
To me, the interesting thing about this whole question is whether there is any difference in Dr. Redding rejecting catholic christology because she has become a Muslim as opposed to rejecting catholic christology because she was, for example, a follower of Bishop Spong. Because really, the only unusual think about Dr. Redding is not what she rejects but what she accepts.
The negative side of Dr. Redding’s beliefs — her rejection of the divinity of Jesus, etc. is unremarkable among TEC clergy. In any gathering of Episcopal clergy, this is routine Bishop Spong/Marcus Borg/Jesus Seminar sort of stuff, and would include a sizeable percentage of the TEC clergy that I know. These kind of clergy have no problem rationalizing their reciting of the Nicene Creed every Sunday because they “interpret it differently” or the “we” at the beginning doesn’t include them, or whatever. Read Marcus Borg’s very popular Heart of Christianity for a defense of this sort of thing. In any case, it’s very common among TEC clergy.
In Dr. Redding’s case, the only thing that’s unusual is that she has combined the rejection of the divinity of Jesus, etc. with an affirmative belief in Islam. This may be uncommon, but I don’t see how the substance of it is any different from the many TEC clergy who reject the divinity of Jesus for rationalistic reasons.
#7. MargaretG –
There are some things that are so funny they hurt, and there are others that hurt so much one has to treat them with humor. Although my little parody was intended to be humorous, it also expresses genuinely painful truth about the Episcopal Church as I see it.
Re #54
Jason, I think you’re exactly right. That’s one reason, among many, why the “crisis of faith” line doesn’t wash. Rev. Redding had her crisis of faith, in which she decided to reject the Trinity and divinity of Christ, quite a while ago, as the Seattle Times article indicated. Her embrace of Islam was just one of many possible manifestations that that decision could have resulted in (conversion to Judaism, Unitarianism, fall into atheism or agnosticism, joining the Church of Spong :-), etc.). This outcome of that decision is the more shocking, I think, because of the gross disrespect that it demonstrates toward both faiths, as well as because she continues to hold on to her priesthood despite repudiating much if not all that it stands for.
Both of us elves have been offline much of the day and thus not monitoring comments. We’d like to remind folks that Fr. Jake is not the topic of this thread. It seems like it has gotten way too personal on both sides at times here.
Of course feel free to refute other commenters’ statements but in doing so, please don’t launch all-out personal attacks against folks character and motives. Thanks. As we say, this goes for both sides.
–elfgirl
Objectively, anyone who claims to believe what she professes is having a crisis of faith. Subjectively — that’s another story. I am not sure that she perceives it as a crisis of faith. Nor do I see any evidence that her bishop perceives a crisis — unless it is the fact that the story has legs.
An Elf writes,
Between this exhortation and the “fun” over who got to break the story first, there is an unseemly trimphalism amongst the reasserters today. Fine. I too have felt the guilty thrill of victory when somebody from the “other side” does something to discredit their ideology. As a reappraiser let me be the first to congratulate you on scoring an “Armstrong Point” for the orthodox.
What I look forward to in this thread is the coming broad brush which will be used to connect this unfortunate woman to progressive Episcopalians in general. Let’s get it over with, since it is impossible to accept Rev. Redding’s stance as anything more than the theological confusion of one who should know better.
Mark my words, it is only a matter of time before that bishop in New Hampshire starts quoting passages from the Qu’eeran in his sermons.
Wilfred, honestly not understanding what this story has to do with the bishop of New Hampshire. Why do you keep commenting about him? On this thread it is off-topic and you’re trying our patience
Dan, #59:
I’m the elf who posted this story, as well as the elf that was teasing my Stand Firm colleagues.
On the latter, I’ll perhaps plead guilty to “triumphalism.” But I honestly don’t see how the exhortation to get the word out to many who otherwise would not be aware of these kind of events in our church is such.
I’m not going to apologize for recognizing and celebrating the importance of blogs as a tool for networking and information sharing.
Perhaps you need to understand. All of us here at T19 and everyone over at Stand Firm, and pretty much all of the reasserting bloggers I know (Brad Drell, Baby Blue, etc…) all do this as VOLUNTEERS.
We put in dozens of hours per week (some weeks I’ve logged 30 hours+ on T19-related stuff) on top of our real jobs, ministries and “normal” lives (if bloggers indeed have such). We do it because God has called us. Because He has gifted us and motivated us: we’ve seen the need, we’ve seen a role we can play, and we’ve stepped forward and said “Here Am I.”
And by God’s grace, most of us believe it’s making a difference. It’s made a difference for each of us in allowing us to feel connected and to make our voice heard… so: we believe in blogs, and we’ll continue to exploit their potential as best we can.
I hope I haven’t put too many words in my friends and colleagues’ mouths, but I think I have a good enough sense of who they are and why they too are joined in this battle, that my words are probably pretty true for most of them too.
–elfgirl
Oh and Dan, I’m not looking to use any broad brush against “progressive Episcopalians in general”
My real concern as I’ve stated above, I believe, is Bp. Warner, and for clear standards for ordination / leadership / church discipline. Bp. Warner is failing gravely in his job as a shepherd based on this example. That reason alone is enough for me to want to broadcast the news widely.
–elfgirl
How many elves are there? Are they both men and women? How do you get to BE an elf? I haven’t been here very long and I have had the elves stomp on me several times, but I have a good deal of respect for them since what they do is of the essence to a blog of genuine discussion and debate. I have looked at other blogs, and I would no more use them than I would…..’
(fill in the blank) LM
There is no point is discussing her peculiar beliefs, however bizarre they are, because SHE IS NOT LISTENING. Nor does she have any reason to.
Question: If we put this dreadful woman with, say, the ex-governor of New Jersey and their ilk, will TEC develop a centrifugal force that will spin them out of TEC’s orbit,leaving the TEC congregations exhausted but free to revive, or will they develop a centripetal force that will suck all of TEC down the same drain? Either can happen, can’t it? Then what of the moderates who must make up a large portion of TEC? If and when +++Williams declares TEC persona non grata in Sept., what can the remainder do? Stay and go down? Flee, bitter and resentful of +++Williams and the Anglicans? I do wish someone who knows more than I do would address these questions. Kendall won’t do it.
The other question I would like answered I have asked before and before: Does anyone else in the US care one way or another about this debacle? Will it have any repercussions of any note on the society at large? LM
RE: “So I suggest that you be silent.”
[giggle]
Fr. Jake is . . . “hoping and wishing and dreaming” I see.
Keep on trying. Maybe some day . . . if you try real real hard, we’ll all “be silent”. ; > )
Hey Elves — thanks for comment #61. Too true.
#59,
The problem is that this woman’s bishop seems unconcerned, and even excited about her Christian/Muslim(sic) faith. The original article admits there hasn’t been much outrage about it in the Diocese of Olympia. Of course it is wrong to imply she represents all reappraisers.
However, I think the reason the blogosphere (and its not just conservative Christians) is jumping on this is because of how odd it is. This is “news of the weird” material, and parody isn’t even this good. I think it is just such an astounding story, it is bound to get attention. I mean some of us are used to being astounded at what comes out of TEC and Seattle, and a combination of the two…but this is pretty strange, at least from the perspective of this reasserting Catholic.
Jake is sputtering, that’s all. His mind is skating – grasping for anything to stop the slide.
Jake: A “spiritual crisis” is not how you describe a cheery article in the diocesan newsletter trumpeting a priest’s belief in Islam. It’s not how you describe a bishop who characterizes those beliefs as “exciting.”
By way of illustration: Peyton Manning on the cover of The Sporting News, grinning and holding his Lombardi Trophy.
Jake: “He’s having an athletic crisis… can’t you people see that?!?!?!?”
“The coming broad brush which will be used to connect this unfortunate woman to progressive Episcopalians in general.” —Dan Ennis, #59
Dan: Redding resembles many, though not all, ECUSA reappraisers in exhibiting weak grasp of scripture (which she purports to teach in purportedly Christian seminaries), flaccid reasoning, and casual dismissiveness toward traditional Christian doctrine.
You may dispute all of these points. But you cannot dispute that Redding has been treated fair more indulgently than orthodox clergy who run afoul of their revisionist bishops. Mark Hansen got defrocked for taking a sabbatical. Redding publicly apostasizes and remains a priest in good standing, even preaching regularly at the cathedral.
If you and other reappraisers want to put this case behind you, then support prompt and serious canonical DISCIPLINE of Redding.
But such discipline seems unlikely, doesn’t it? Reappraisers are loth to discipline their own. And disciplining Redding would imply that some views are truer or more acceptable than others. That would conflict with many reappraisers’ pervasive RELATIVISM.
So this story really does go to the heart of current conflicts in ECUSA. Redding exhibits an unusual sort of apostasy. But reappraisers’ response to that apostasy is typical and telling.
If you disagree with what I’ve written, please be sure to explain:
(1) how ECUSA should deal with Redding; and
(2) whether Redding’s conduct is, at a big-picture spiritual level, more serious or less serious than that of the many orthodox priests (e.g., Mark Hansen) deposed by revisionist bishops.
#61 elf-girl – I know this is off topic, but what do you mean you don’t get paid for this? Aren’t you getting your IRD check like the folks on other Anglican blogs? 🙂 🙂
#4. It cannot prevent such a diffusion. On the one hand, this is the result of a refusal to create standards which at all times require exclusiveness.
But I think the intent is to create a new religion. I had not thought this in all previous discussion here, but now this conclusion seems inescapable, one in which total inclusion is dogma. Such a creature would not be Christian of course, but there is plenty of evidence that TEC is no longer Christian in any usual sense. TEC has spoken about the Holy Spirit doing new things, but I underestimated what TEC actually meant by new. Take me literally. I mean a really new religion, something not ever seen before.
We have already seen some of the new standards: The emphasis on social service, the emphasis on civil rights, the denial of sin and evil, the exaltation of personal feeling,the Bible as Haggadah (if I may put it that way), the denial of dogma and creed, and especially, the deification of what I call for lack of a better, the universal subjective. The argument seems to be that all people are the same at the psychological level and this sameness, this absence of boundary, permits a flow,a transmission of spiritual energy horizontally so that everyone in a state of “communion” undergoes a mystical union, a love for one another that both keeps and merges – this is its religious mystery – the individuality. The more one becomes everyone, the more one becomes one’s self. Christ is not necessary but is sufficient to induce this state of union. He is not God’s son, he is the souls’ soma. I suspect we are watching the apotheosis of the 60’s greed for self-indulgence becoming etherialized, a universal – what’s the word I want? – tasp. (Does anyone remember the scifi writer Larry Niven? I have borrowed this word from him.) This religion, because it has no boundaries, carries no punishments; it is a religion made of rewards.
Yes, yes, I DO go on, but this thread, this appalling woman and her bishop, McCreevey and the seminary, Robinson, the services with witches and whatnot, has made me rethink what goal TEC aims to hit, and I am impressed with the degree to which this is a woman’s religion. LM
Larry (#64) I do believe we need to discuss this womens beliefs because she could be the poster person for many in TEC leadership, bad theology, poor reasoning, lack of integrity, failure of her bishop and diocese staff to grasp the result of the publicity generated by the articles about her. When things get rough the response isn’t “We have a problem lets deal with it” the diocese staff wants to sweep it under the rug.
Dave B., I would add that we need to discuss this because it shows what happens when a church plays fast and loose with the scripture and thumbs its nose at tradition. Clearly, there is no heresy that is out of bounds in the TEc, nowadays.
I have sent a hard copy to the editor of our diocesan newspaper asking them to reprint the article to show the remarkable “diversity” of “our church”. See if they are foolish enough to do it…
I have a colleague who, like Rev. Ann, considers himself both Muslim and Christian. He believes that he is in touch with the spiritual realities that ‘hover above’ all religions and whose who honestly seek spiritual enlightenment will find it through various religions. He points to the shear number of adherents of these religions as ‘proof’ that there must be some truth in them.
My thought is that he practicing a form of gnosticism in his ‘buffet style faith’ and that numbers of followers do not prove anything – Fascism, Communism and the Backstreet Boys all had legions of committed followers.
Correct. TEC is becoming a church by and for women and their homosexual friends, and the men are going to leave.
#76
I have read the one of the great appeals of both Islam and Mormonism is that they are ‘male’ churches – that is, dominated by men and ‘guy stuff’ – and that Evangelical Christianity, at least in the U.S., is a ‘female’ religion. Hmmm, polygamy, strict male heads-of-household, promises of eternal lives of sex, sex and more sex with multiple nubile women; yeah, I can see how guys might like that.
I wonder if Rev. Ann would have the same view of her combo-meal faith if she lived in Pakistan or Iran, or even Indonesia. Certainly, religious syncretism feels good within a legal culture and climate that restricts its potentially abusive side. You get to pick that parts of your various religions that you like and then fall back on the secular law when the ugly side emerges.
#77 –
Islam and Mormonism illustrate why the Pauline teachings on the proper roles of men and women are so important. That duality is being driven out of TEC. Incidentally, it is also missing from homosexual relationships, which is another reason there is no way such arrangements can be a “marriage.”
I don’t think Christianity and Islam are compatible. On the other hand, it is obviously tremendously important that they get on. It is also the case that in times past (perhaps almost entirely gone) Christians and Muslims in the East revered the same saints and worshipped at the same shrines and Muslims visited Christian priests and churches for spiritual help and support: all this is fully documented in William Dalrymple’s ‘From the Holy Mountain’. I think this Afro-American lady has been greatly influenced by the fact that her fellow Episcopalians are almost all white, whereas lots of black Americans are Muslims. I don’t think we should sneer at her, nor do I think that her particular predicament illustrates the depravity of ‘anything goes’ TEC theology.
I wrote about my thoughts on this on my blog — I see an incompatibility between the way that some are treating this instance and some see “Messianic Judaism.”
I don’t see anybody sneering at her. The genuine cause for concern is the failure of her Bishop to inhibit her from performing her duties as an Episcopal priest. Frankly she should quit of her own volition. In that sense, it does illustrate the depravity of ‘anything goes’ TEC theology. What is interesting is that “liberal” bloggers who are quick to malign Primates and Bishops with whom they do not agree and cannot respond to allegations on their blog, have not condemned this but call this a “crisis of faith”. But then, since this is all due to the democratic polity of the Episcopal Church, it must be OK.
#81 Georgia, you expressed my thoughts much better than I ever could. The other problem I have is that Redding was never seen as needing help in this fantasy she is pursuing. Even if her Bishop doesn’t inhibit her he should encourage a leave to allow her to sort out her true desires and positions. If she wants to be muslim then fine, but wanting it both ways, again, is embematic of much of TEC. Either you accept the faith as recieved or you reject it, there really isn’t much soft ground with God. “being luke warm I spit you out”
Sorry I ment George
“I think this Afro-American lady has been greatly influenced by the fact that her fellow Episcopalians are almost all white, whereas lots of black Americans are Muslims.”
Maybe so. How ironic that most churchgoing Anglicans are African or Asian and that millions of them face persecution from Muslims.
#80, considering the number of self-described “Jewish atheists” I’ve known, nothing else seems odd. In many ways, I suspect the more “out there” flavors of Reform Judaism show us what to expect of TEC.
#81
I think I could demonstrate quite a few ‘sneers’. I do agree that her bishop should make clear to her that her position is untenable. But I was talking about her: ‘her predicament’.
In a way, this whole business of thinking one can be both Christian and Muslim is magical, childish thinking. It is also characteristic of the liberal position on acceptance of homosexual behavior as being somehow consonant with received Christian truth. Rather than grappling with reality, they seem to just ignore the facts that they don’t like and then act as if those facts do not exist. It is behavior wholly characteristic of two year old children, not adults.
In C.S. Lewis’s THE LAST BATTLE the hybrid deity was named Tashlan and was the product of the unscrupulous, a monkey and an ass. Perhaps, one of us should send Rev. Anne a copy.
Ron O’Neil, Bishop of Colorado, is supporting, through Peter Eaton, Dean of St. John’s Cathedral in the Wilderness in Denver, a Muslim student through a Denver Christian seminary, using funds channeled through outside sources.